Dr. Richard Colo #1: Eye Doctor that has drawn both national and international shooters to his practice.

In the 46 years that Dr. Colo has been in practice in CT, he has created a unique specialty niche related to shooting that has drawn both national and international shooters to his practice. Rich has developed a system of dominance evaluation that has been accepted as the benchmark among some of the nation’s top instructors. His role is not that of shooting instructor; rather, it is to maximize the visual efficiency needed to complement proper shooting mechanics. His passion for his profession and favorite avocation are infectious to all who seek his counsel. Podcast Transcription: Justin: On the show with me today, I have the one and only Dr. Colo and Dr. Colo is out of Connecticut. He is a sports vision specialist and if you have been in the sport long enough, really not even long enough, but just a time to hear someone talk about eyes, his name had to have come up in conversation, he has a lot of good information that I want him to share with you and I want to hear a lot of it myself. Also, on the line with me, I have Will Fennell, Will Fennell has Dr. Colo in. Will, what is it? Once or twice a year for a clinic at your place. Will Fennell: Yeah, Covid has kind of knocked that back a little bit, but we try to get him down as often as we can and also, Dr. Colo has just been amazing, not only for my own shooting, my wife’s shooting and our eye situations and our prescriptions and our glasses, he’s a great resource that we lean on a lot of times when we get stumped with an issue, with somebody and their eyes or their vision issues and stuff. Doctor Colo has always been very gracious with his time and also very helpful to us, we’ll call him a lot of times from the field. I think the folks in his office probably get a little PO’d at us, because he’s always interrupting somebody else’s appointment to take a phone call from me or Carlisle or Anthony or somebody, to try to figure out what’s going on with somebody’s eyes. So, he is a great asset and a good friend, and we really, really value his abilities to help us in this game.  Justin: Well, that being said, welcome to the show Dr. Colo.  Dr. Colo: Well, thank you very much. That’s quite an introduction, I really appreciate it very much, guys.  Justin: You know, I was thinking about having you on and when I was thinking about having an eye doctor, so to speak on the show with me, I instantly thought about one thing, and a lot of people will think about this one thing when they see that you’re on the podcast and that is eye dominance, and the issue with eye dominance and is it a real thing, is it something that really affects you and can you really tell if your left eye or right eye dominant? I mean, there’s so many questions that everyone has, especially me. I’m really glad you’re on and you can maybe clear some of this up for me Will Fennell: Before doc even speaks, I’d like to say something about that. Guys, at the shooting school, we probably get two or three people a month who have thought for years that their eye dominance is, say left-eye dominant and it turns out they’re not, they’re truly right-eye dominant or a lot of times, it’s somewhere in the middle. A lot of the older tests that have been used in gun clubs for years and years and years are not very good tests, they’re very inconclusive, they make a shooter pick one eye or the other and Dr. Colo is the man that developed the definitive eye dominance test that we all use now, that really ascertain somebody’s, and I’ll let doc explain this term better, cyclopean position and through his help learning this, it has changed things dramatically for us on the coaching field. Justin: Well, how about that. Can you use some smaller words, Will? Will Fennell: I’ll try to stick with the small words, but doctor Colo is going to be the hard one to keep on the small words Justin: Okay Dr. Colo There’s going to be the big problem Justin: Oh, I’m sure. Dr. Colo: A couple of years teaching in school, it’s hard for me to drop it Justin: Yeah Dr. Colo: But you hit a really big point, when you said, is there dominance? Does it affect things? We’ll get into the definition and the practical application of all this in just a second, but that’s something we should address, right out the chute. You go over the pond and other than England, it’s mainly FITASC with a low gun and you don’t hear too much about dominance. Well, with trap shooters, where the gun is up in your face all the time and skeet shooters from American skeet and you hear a lot about the outcome. Well, the truth of the matter is, dominance is a relatively moot point, if the conscious is excluded. In other words, if there’s no conscious relationship between the bird and the barrel, then the brain knows what to do, it’s only when the conscious gets involved, that we get into trouble if we are undone. Most people think we look at the bird hard, pick a spot on the bird because we want to get better input, we want to see speed, the angle, the distance that happens in a nanosecond. The reason we’re looking really hard at the bird is to give the conscious a difficult enough task to get it out of the way, just looking at the bird doesn’t work, it has to be a tougher job. It has to be a flash of a bird, it has to be a spot on the bird, it has to be a ring on the bird. David says he sees rings at 60 yards, I don’t know if David sees rings at 60 yards, but I’ll tell you something, David does sees rings at 60 yards, point being that it’s a situation that even if you create the visual necessary to get that conscious out of the way, then dominance is moot, it doesn’t come into play, but we will develop that into our plan as we move forward, I just didn’t want to miss that. Will Fennel: You say conscious and vision, you’re talking about letting the barrel come into your conscious thought and your vision, letting the barrel come into focus. You’re consciously driving the barrel versus focusing intently on the bird and letting that subconscious drive the barrel, correct?  Dr. Colo: Absolutely correct.  Justin: So, you’re saying you see the barrel as well as the bird? Dr. Colo: Well, okay. Well, this is good, this is going to be a good night. I like the way you guys are thinking. Okay, so Justin Justin: Yeah Dr. Colo: You have to see the lead, but you can never look at it. Seeing the lead is subconscious, looking at the lead is conscious Justin: Okay. Makes sense  Dr. Colo: Justin, if you were in a skeet field and you were on station one, low one and you were left eye dominant, shooting right-handed, with both eyes open, you have to shoot three feet behind low one to break. Now, if you are not conscious of where that barrel is. In other words, the brain is seeing the relationship, but it’s subconscious, the brain knows what to do, but you’re not consciously shooting three feet behind the bird, because  you don’t know where the barrel is consciously, but if you were going to consciously do it, then you’d have to take that barrel and put it three feet behind the bird, in or to break the bird. Justin: Right. Okay Dr. Colo: I can see that, boy. It was the three of us, if we’re not careful, we’re going to just, my A.D.D just, it takes over and I can go in five different places. So, let’s jump right in to, kind of a definition of dominance. The old definition of dominance really is on a practical plane, there’s an eye that picks up the initial fixation and then the other eye comes in at an angle. Now, that’s how we tell distance, that’s how we tell depth perception. The angle that’s formed at the object between the two eyes tells the brain how far away something is Justin: That’s why you can’t see depth if you cover one eye. Dr. Colo: That’s right Justin: Yeah Dr. Colo: Exactly, correct.  Justin: Yep Dr. Colo: Very good. So, it’s a circumstance where what we’ve learned, however, is that dominant position can be anywhere between the right eye and  the left and we kind of define that, when we use that big word cyclopean, a cyclops. A cyclops has one eye in the middle of his head Justin: Right.  Dr. Colo: Well, if you take that eye and you move it just inside the nose on the right eye, that would be, kind of not centre, but in between right and centre.  Justin: Right.  Dr. Colo: The old ways of measuring dominance is you took an aperture and you looked at an object through the aperture and you brought the aperture back to the eye and whichever eye you brought it back to that was your dominant eye. Justin: Right Dr. Colo: However, we know now that that situation is flawed because it forces you to pick an eye Justin: I was going to say that. So, when I did that, it depends on where you bring your hands, I use my hands, you know, create the diamond in your hands.  Dr. Colo: Yeah  Justin: And whichever side I brought it up on my nose is where my hands went to. So, if it wasn’t perfectly in the centre and it was slightly to the right, it would come to my right eye. If I moved it to the left, barely to the left and brought it back to my eye, it would be on the left eye, so I thought to myself, how is this accurate? Dr. Colo:  You’re defining exactly how inaccurate that is. Justin: Right.  Dr. Colo: So, I’m going to go through right now, five ways of determining dominance and which are practical for the shooter to use.  Justin: Okay.  Dr. Colo: So, the first way is measuring mechanical dominance, that is what we call an objective method, objective means we see results that we can evaluate, subjective is when the patient or the shooter is telling us something. So, the way to do this objectively, I developed a system and the system uses the right hand and the left hand and uses a five position set up between the two eyes. So, the right eye would be number one, in between the right eye and the nose is two, the nose is three, in between the nose and the left eye is four and the left eye is five. Justin: Okay Dr. Colo: Now we have a system that is universal. Will can call me and say, you know, doc, I’ve got this girl, she’s an R2 L3. So that, gives me specifically the picture of where she is mechanically, in terms of measuring the dominance. The way we do this best is to use an iPhone, we can use a camera, but  the new phones work perfect and you stand at least, 10, 12 feet away and what you’ll do is, you’ll have the shooter look at the lens on the iPhone. Now it’s important that there’s total concentration on the lens and then simply bring the thumb of the right hand up to the lens and take the photo and then bring the thumb up from the left hand to the lens and take the photo and then, we look at the photos and the positioning of both thumbs tells us where we’re at. If we’re at R1 L1 then we know we have a really strong, mechanical dominance. If we’re on R5 L5 then we know we have a strong left dominance. Now, Justin, we never spoke until about an hour ago, correct? Justin: That’s correct Dr. Colo: Okay, and so, I had you take two photos and send them to me Justin: Yes sir. Dr. Colo:  Okay. Now, up until this point, you felt because of the circumstances, why don’t you tell everyone kind of, now you’re a masterclass shooter. Tell everyone, what you’ve been doing, in terms of being able to achieve the level of shooting that you’ve achieved. Justin: Okay. Well, when I started, I think I started shooting in 16, NSCA I think it was. Anyway, I would mount the gun, I’d do all these little tricks and eye dominance test and it was said that I’m left eye dominant. So, that’s just what I assumed I was, I’ve done the tape over the left eye, I’ve done the dots over the left eye, I’ve done the Chapstick. I’ve closed my eyes, squinted my eye, I’ve done it all and I just assumed I was left eye dominant. So, moving up through the classes, I’m shooting better than, of course when you start out and eventually, I got to the point to where, when I would hold my gun in my right hand, I’m a right hand shooter, so my left hand on the fore end, I would cock my left thumb up on the edge of the fore end, so that it would, so to speak block out my left eye, when I was going to pull the trigger.  Dr. Colo: Yep Justin: So, and that’s the way I’ve always done it, still. Still I’ll cock up that thumb, thinking, well this long incomer, that started out at 245 yards out there and it’s coming in, it’s going to land it at 30 and I’m going to cock that thumb up and I’m going to try to shoot it with my right eye and that’s the way I’ve always done it. Now I’ve gotten to where I’ve gotten, probably because I’ve shot a whole lot and I don’t know if, this is a good question to you. I don’t know if it’s, can you overcome eye dominance? Can you go from a left eye dominant shooter to a right eye dominant shooter? Can you figure out how to do that?  Dr. Colo: Eye dominance doesn’t change, except for certain physical factors, which I’ll get into later. Justin: Okay.  Dr. Colo: In other words, there are things related to eye disease and stuff like that can affect dominance, but you can’t teach yourself to compensate for our eye dominance and it doesn’t switch, part of the way through around.  Justin: Okay, so Dr. Colo: Which we will address very vividly moving forward. So, before we go on ahead, I had you take pictures Justin: Correct Dr. Colo: Did you see the two pictures? Justin: I saw them, and I know about what you’re looking for. So, it looked to me like both my right and my left thumb were in the same spot to me.  Dr. Colo: Yes. So, your right thumb was between your right eye and the nose and your left thumb was between your right eye and your nose. So, you are what we call, almost like an R1 L2, R2 L2 Justin: Okay Dr. Colo: So, you are the exact same dominant position as Dan Carlisle Justin: Okay.  Dr. Colo: And if I remember correctly, David Radulovich, David was R1 L1 Will Fennell: Oh, I thought he was two. Yeah, you did it, I saw the photo. Justin: Let’s just say I’m the same as David, okay Dr. Colo: Okay, so just looking at the mechanical dominance right now, you really are in a position where you should be able to shoot both eyes open Justin: Right Dr. Colo: Without you sticking your thumb up. So, that’s the initial premise, now we’ve got more things to go through that will help tell us better where we want to be. Justin: Alright Dr. Colo: So that’s the objective measurement. Will or Justin, do you have any question about that objective measurement?  Justin: Nah, not right now.  Dr. Colo: This is important. Now remember, you folks out there, when you do this test, the Virgin test is the best one. In other words, the first time you do it or have someone do it on you, or you do it on someone, because after you do it three or four times, you can kind of hover a bit. In fact, what you might want to do is actually do a video, because what’ll happen sometimes, is you bring your thumb up centrally and then move it over, it’s that initial presentation that tells you where you are. What I don’t like is some instructors now are using kind of a rapid technique. Up and down, up and down, right and left, right and left, I don’t recommend doing that, I think that that gets you compensating a bit. So, that defined the mechanical dominance. So now we go to the second, which is the perceptual dominance. Now we’re back in the brain and we’re looking at a subjective test. So now, Justin what I’m going to do is I’m going to have you point to something 20 feet away with your left forefinger with both eyes open. Justin: Doc, I’m in a room here, hold on one second.  Dr. Colo: Okay Justin: So, I need to point at one thing, that’s 20 foot away from me, with my left finger. Dr. Colo:  Yep.  Justin: Alright.  Dr. Colo: You’re looking at where you’re pointing at and you’re going to close your right eye, and your right fingers going to jump way right Justin: I’m pointing it with my left finger, I’m going to close my right eye Dr. Colo: Yep Justin: Yeah, it jumps to the right. Dr. Colo: Correct Justin: Okay.  Dr. Colo: Now you’re going to point again, and you’re going to close your left eye and it’s not going to move at all.  Justin: Correct.  Dr. Colo: Now you’re going to point with your right hand and you’re going to close your right eye and it’s going to jump way right Justin: Correct.  Dr. Colo: Now you’re going to point with your right hand and you’re going to close your left eye and it’s not going to move at all.  Justin: That is correct.  Dr Colo: Now, think about this. If you’re strong right eye dominant or strong, left eye dominant, when you cover one eye, it’s not going to move at all. When you cover the other eye, t’s going to move a whole bunch. If subjectively, it’s someplace in between the right eye and the left eye, then you may get movement both ways. In other words, when you shut the left eye, the finger moves left, when you shut the right eye, the finger moves, right. If it’s exact central, then it will be equal how much the finger moves, but if it’s kind of in between the right eye and the nose, it will probably move more right and less left. Are we all on the same page? Am I losing anybody? Justin: No. No, I’m with you, but let me ask you a question while we’re right here.  Dr. Colo: Yep.  Justin: Okay when I look at that object and I hold my finger up. I see two fingers. Dr. Colo: That’s right, that’s called physiological diplopia. I have to get a few of these words in and that means that when you’re looking at the object, the angle at your finger is such that you can’t fuse the images when you’re looking. If you look hard at your finger, then you’d see two targets.  Justin: Right, that’s correct. Yep Dr. Colo: That’s perfectly normal okay.  Justin: So, when you do that, do you, I’m just going to Dr. Colo: The brain knows which one is the right one. Justin: Okay. All right.  Dr. Colo: Now, half the time that there’s a central position, then you can’t do what you’re doing with your finger, or you can’t blink an eye when you break the trigger. Justin: Okay.  Dr. Colo: So, if you think about this, so if when you close the left eye, your finger moves left, and when you close the right eye your finger moves right. Then when you got into your thumb or you close the left eye, the barrel would move left. You don’t have that circumstance.  Justin: Okay.  Dr. Colo: Okay? I Justin: All right.  Dr. Colo: Will, did I get that across okay? Will Fennell: I think so, doc, but I think we’re now starting to get a little too much into, stuff that people probably don’t think about a whole lot.  Dr. Colo: Say that again. Will Fennell: I’m worried if we talk too much about what the barrel is supposed to look like, people are going to look at the barrel more to see what the barrel looks like.  Dr. Colo: Oh, yeah. So, it’s simply a matter of this subjective test is very, very important to tell whether someone is perceptually in some place between the right eye and left eye. So bottom line here is, if you get movement both ways, you cannot blink an eye when you’re ready to pull the trigger. Justin: Okay.  Will Fennell: Because the ball will jump Dr. Colo: Or if you get movement opposite to the shoulder. If the gun’s on the right shoulder, when you close the left eye, it moves left, you can’t close it off. Now, it’s up to you guys to tell me when I’m getting too deep here, but I’m going to try to get it all in. So, this is really important, so somebody has a patch and they’re trying to keep the patch small to keep it less obtrusive in their shooting skeets. If they’re not going eyes first, but they’re going hands first with a gun at times, then they’re going to get out of the patch.  Will Fennell: Okay. So, doc, you jumped, people don’t know what the difference between eye first and gun first is Dr. Colo: Okay, and I want to bring that up later. I don’t want to muddy the waters. So, what we’re talking about Will Fennell: Well Dr. Colo: Let’s drop that. So, the point is with a patch, if you get out of the patch. If you’re shooting right hand and you get movement left, when you close the left eye or you’re shooting left-handed and you get movement, right when you’re closing the right eye, then you have to be very careful in a low gun position that you don’t get out of the patch as the gun comes up, because soon as you get in the patch, the gun is going to move three feet, if it’s right handed. Then it’ll move three feet left, if it’s left-handed it will move three feet right. So, you have to be very, very careful about that. So, the patch has to be big enough, if you’re shooting skeets as to make sure you don’t get into trouble and if you’re going to be closing an eye, if you get movement, for a right hand shooter, left when you close the left eye, then you have to close that eye on pull,  you can’t close that eye when you’re ready to break the trigger Justin: Right Dr. Colo: So, we’ve got our objective, subjective, mechanical perceptual done. Justin:  Let’s stop you right there for a second.  Dr. Colo: Okay Justin: You’re talking about closing the eye, putting a dot over the eye with the eye patch, whatever it is. Is that the right thing to do or is the right thing to do to shoot the opposite hand? Dr. Colo: Again, okay. Most people, the right thing to do is shoot the opposite hand if they’re R5 L5,  but if they are R3 L5 then even those around the left side and even though they may not get any movement when they close the right eye, they’re probably still not going to be a good candidate for switching to the left and there are a lot of other factors, Justin, related to that switch that are above my pay grade. In other words, above the eye doctors, in relation to what the gun coach or instructor may consider before making a decision like that.  Justin: Right, okay Will Fennell: But if somebody is a hundred percent left eye dominant. Generally speaking, the best thing is to switch to the left shoulder unless, it depends on  Dr. Colo: If you catch them relatively early in their journey.  Justin: Right.  Will Fennell: Yes.  Dr. Colo: But if they’re not trying to win the world championship and they’ve been shooting a long, long time and they want to be a better recreational shooter, maybe shoot in some registered tournaments, but they’re not trying to be 100% best they can be and do this professionally, winking or patching might be a perfectly acceptable thing to do, but I always encourage people whose goals are to be the best they can be. If they are truly 100% left eye-dominant to at least try it, because the eyes are going to love it Justin: When I had that on my eye, whichever one it was, the dot or the Chapstick, whichever one it was. At the time when you’re ready to pull the trigger, I could not help, but see whatever was in my way. Dr. Colo:  You bet your life and I mean, there is a God, because he gave you the perfect scenario for us to demonstrate everything we want to demonstrate, you couldn’t have come up with a better script, Justin.  When we get into the next phase, you’ll see exactly why. You’ve created with that thumb, a situation, where you have, oh I don’t want to give it away yet. Wait a minute Justin: It’s like Christmas time for doc.  Dr. Colo: It is. Okay. So, we’ve got three more things. These are just for the instructors or the guys helping other people, they don’t relate that definitively with us. Here’s another test you can do if you’re not sure whether you want to go to the other side or not, or how strong the dominant position is, you can go to the drug store, get a set of 1.50 readers at the dollar store and what to do is just, punch one of the 1.50 lenses out of the frame and take that lens and have someone look in the distance at something that they’ve got to concentrate on, and with both eyes open, put the lens over one eye and then put the lens over the other eye. It should be a lot more comfortable when the lens is not on the dominant eye. Justin: Okay.  Dr. Colo: Okay.  Justin: So, you don’t put the glasses on, you just punch the lens out and kind of move it with your hands?  Dr. Colo: Yes. Justin: Okay.  Dr. Colo: The other thing, I’m going to throw it out. It’s called near point of convergence. You asked someone to take their finger, if you take your finger and move it towards your nose, there was a point where it breaks into two fingers. If you watch someone’s eyes when they do that, I’ve never seen it not do this, the non-dominant eye is the one that breaks out, the other one stays on. The third thing is something I’ve done a few times. Now, that I’ve sold my practice, I can’t do it as much anymore, but I have an electro retinogram. An EKG is for the heart, an ERG is for the eye. So, I have an electroretinogram in my office and  Will Fennell: Wait doc, say what it is again? Electro  Dr. Colo: retinogram Will Fennell: Okay Dr. Colo: So what it does, is it measures the time each eye takes to get a fixation and the dominant eye is always the faster one, but those three, I just wanted to get that out and there were times where I wasn’t sure right or left and I run a 300 hour ERG on the house.  Justin: So, it doesn’t matter with all this technology, you you can make somebody see that  wear glasses again or they don’t wear glasses, but you cannot change eye dominance no matter what you do Dr. Colo: Correct. Now there are, I might as well bring it up now then, there are certain conditions. There’s been extensive studies done that show that visual acuity does not affect dominance. So, you hear people  Will Fennell: They say all the time, well my left eye sees better than my right, so my left eye wants to take over, that is not the case  Dr. Colo: At all.  Will Fennell: Okay Dr. Colo: Those poor people, 20 years ago that spent all that money with me that I blurred up the eye. I hope at the pearly gates, they forgive me for that one someday, that was a long time ago. So, it does not affect dominance. What does affect dominance is what they call neutral density filtering, a darker lens. I had, that’s another older story that I don’t want to get into, but a darker lens will move dominance to some degree. Now, what does happen Will Fennel: Doc, before you go any further, clarify that, or you’re going to have everybody just putting their Dr. Colo: Dark lens on  Will Fennell: Yeah. The little bit that doesn’t make it chip Dr. Colo: Yeah. I played with that and didn’t find it to be significant enough. Here’s what happened guys. When I got it dark enough to really make a difference, then there wasn’t enough light to keep using both eyes together.  Justin: I got you Dr. Colo:  I want to start over and say that again clearer, because people are going to run go put their darkest lens on their left side and their lightest lens on their right side. It doesn’t give you enough, but if someone’s getting a cataract or as we get older, the media becomes denser and denser.  Will Fennell: The media. What’s the media? Dr. Colo: The eye, as you’re looking through it. The corneas at the front, the anterior chambers behind the cornea, then the lens where cataract form and the gel part of the eye. All of that gets denser and lets in less light, so if it’s happening more in one eye than the other, then that can have an effect on the dominance Will Fennell: But does it make you go from right eye dominant to left eye dominant or does it just shift position a little bit?  Dr. Colo: You didn’t ask me that question Justin: I would think that if you have a cataract Dr. Colo: No, no, no Justin. We don’t want to delve Justin: Okay. Okay  Dr. Colo: There’s just too many factors, it would be an hour and a half discussion on this Justin: Okay Dr. Colo: We’re going to slide over that, because  Will Fennell: Doc, I want to leave people with some clarity about, when the most, 99.9% of the time when people think my dominance shifted during the day Dr. Colo: Oh yes, you bring up a very good point Will Will Fennell: It’s not happening Dr. Colo: That’s not happening Justin: So, basically  Dr. Colo: We better address this right now, we better and then we can Justin: Let me say one thing before you go to the next thing. So, I’m a right hand shooter, I’m just using an example, I’m a right hand shooter and I’m left eye dominant and in two years of me shooting like this, I’ve heard people say before, well, I think that I’ve trained my right arm to take takeover.  Dr. Colo: Right.  Justin: Or they say I’ve done things to learn how to see what I need to see to break targets.  Dr. Colo: Yeah.  Justin: So, when they say that they think they’ve trained their eyes to see, you know, the right eye to take over, is that true or are they still left-eye, I guess they’re still left-eye dominant, they just know the picture that they need to see to break the target. Is that correct?  Dr: Colo: Oh boy. The way you said it has too much ramifications. Okay, let’s say it this way  Justin: Alright Dr. Colo: Dominance is moot, like we said before, when the subconscious is in control. So, you’re totally focused on the play, you can do it. So, people say to me, you know doc, as I got older, my left eye’s now taking over. Gee, you know, when I get tired, I see the left side of the barrel, my left eye takes over. I get a little doubt on a shot., my confidence isn’t  there, my left eye takes over. What’s really interesting is when the confidence is high, when the metabolism is up, when there’s no fatigue and you’re trying to look hard at the target, you’re able to concentrate totally on the target, minimizing any conscious relationship between the bird and the barrel and the dominant position has no effect. Justin: Wow.  Dr. Colo: As you get more fatigued, as there’s more doubt than confidence, you come off of the target to make sure or you come off of the target because you’re tired and now the dominance raises its ugly head.  Justin: That’s absolutely amazing that, that controls that  Dr. Colo: That’s really cool.  Justin: So how do you stay.  Dr. Colo: Okay, so now your situation is going to be the most perfect example for us, but let’s, Will I knew this was going to, is this too complicated guys? Will Fennell: Nope. Nope. Nope.  Dr. Cola: You okay? Will Fennel: Yep Dr. Colo: Okay.  Justin: The good thing about this whole conversation, if someone doesn’t quite understand it, they can rewind it and listen to it again. Will, and I don’t have that opportunity right now.  Will Fennell: That’s right Dr. Colo: Okay Justin. So, let’s now go to the next position, you are not strong right eye dominant Justin: Okay Dr. Colo: You’re slightly central.  Justin: Okay.  Dr. Colo: So, if we put you on a short track target, traps right in front of you and you yell pull. First thing you got is this orange blur Justin: Right Dr. Colo: If you pull the trigger instinctively on that orange blur, it would be like a third baseman playing a ball on a short hop, not in control. Hey, don’t get me wrong, sometimes the targets setters sets it up so that you have to shoot a target on the board.  Justin: Right.  Dr. Colo: But in other words, if you went and pull back and it was an instinctive reaction, you weren’t in real control, because that target’s straight in front of you, there’s only a moment that it’s there. If you said bang at that moment, that’s your area of visual control. If you don’t pull the trigger at that moment, now the target’s getting away from you, now you’re making sure, it would be like a third baseman letting the ball play him. So, whether it’s a short hop or letting the ball play you, you’re not in control, but you have that area of visual control when you say bang A level three instructor in Massachusetts Bob Beamon, gave me a great analogy here. You’re looking through the small end of a funnel, when you pull the funnel starts to turn. When the big end of the funnel gets over your eye and you’re looking through the small end, then a spot on the bird, the gun goes off. If the gun goes off before the funnel gets there, that’s the short hop, not in control. If you don’t pull the trigger when it gets there and you wait, the funnel keeps turning and now you’re making sure. Now, Justin, if you were strong right eye dominant, R1 L1, instead of R2 L2, then you have some luxury of pulling the trigger on the B of bang, on the A of bang, on the N of bang, on the G of bang  and nothing is going  to go wrong Justin: Okay Will Fennell: Justin, you understand what he means by the B, the A, the G Justin: Yeah Will Fennell: Okay Justin: Yeah Will Fennell: Got it Dr. Colo: Will, sometimes has trouble spelling, so he’s got to make sure he gets it. Justin, you can’t do that, you have to pull the trigger on the B of bang, you have to pull the trigger on the front end of visual control, because if you hang on at all with that thumb, then what’s going to happen is you’re going to end up with two goalposts, the bird and the barrel. Now I want to just flip that in limbo for a second, because I want to address more the off dominant position and then we’ll come back to the occlusion position, your position.    Justin:  Okay Dr. Colo: So, let’s go back now and I’m trying to figure out how to do this without any visual and I think I figured it out. So, we’re going to take the gun and we’re going to take the front bead off, the end of the gun, and we’re going to take a yard stick and we’re going to put a screw in the middle of the yard stick, where the bead is and we’re going to put the bead on the front of the yard stick. So, if you’re R1 L1 on the right shoulder and the gun fits you’re right along the axis of the dominance of the cyclopean position. So, you’re shooting exactly where you’re looking, but now Justin, let’s take that yard stick and let’s move the back of the yard stick over to your cyclopean position. So, back of the yard stick moves left between your nose and your right eye. Justin: Okay.  Dr. Colo: What has happened to the front of the yard stick with the site on it, where did it move? Justin: I would assume it moved to the right.  Dr. Colo: Correct. So, the brain now thinks they’re going to shoot to the right, so what do you do. Justin: I don’t know  Dr. Colo: If you think you’re going to shoot to the right, where would you move the gun?  Justin: Well, it depends on where the target’s at Dr. Colo: The target’s on a stick in front of you Justin: If the target’s on a stick in front of me and the yardstick’s moved to the right, I’m going to shoot towards the left Dr. Colo:  So, you’re going to move the gun to the left. Correct. Justin: Right Dr. Colo: You know, I’m going to have to pay you for this podcast, this is perfect. So, you’re going to move the gun to the left, but the brain’s being fooled because the gun isn’t along the cyclopean position, you understand that?  Justin: Yeah.  Dr. Colo: Okay. So now you did is when you move the gun to the left, you put the bead on the target, but the gun is to the left of the target. Justin: Yeah.  Dr. Colo: Now, if you have a 40-yard crosser coming left, now you’ve got both eyes open. If you had a 40-yard cross or coming left to right, you would have to leave the 40-yard crosser, plus how much you moved the gun to the left Justin: Right Dr. Colo: If you had a 40 yard crosser right to left, then you’ve already moved the gun somewhat to the left, so you’d have to lead that right to left bird, minus how much you move the gun to the left Justin: Yeah.  Dr. Colo:  I’ve got a very good friend, does some teaching here at Hartford. His name is Dean Answer and he’s a ultra-engineer, and using very advanced software, he put together a whole thing for me on a skeet field measuring the distance between the two eyes, the velocity at the stake on the skeet field, of the bird, of the trajectory, of the distance and it’s all physics. On station four, the left to right bird, if you pull the trigger and there was only one shot of BB in the gun and that shot of BB hit the target directly over the stake, that target would shoot with three feet, four inches on the high house and three feet four inches on the low house. Do you understand that concept?  Justin: Explain it again. Dr. Colo: Yes Justin: Just so we have it, explain it one more time.  Dr. Colo: Okay. So, let’s put you on station one of a skeet field.  Justin: Okay.  Dr. Colo: You’ve got one BB in the gun, you yell, pull and that BB hits that target at the white stake on the skeet field, from the moment you pulled the trigger to the moment that BB hits the target, the target will travel three feet, four inches. Justin: Okay.  Will Fennell: It takes three feet, four inches lead Justin: Right  Dr. Colo: So, the lead on high one on a skeet field and high four is exactly the same thing, it’s the perceived lead the changes. Will Fennell: Correct.  Dr. Colo: So if you were left eye dominant, shooting right-handed, on the skeet field, the high house would need seven feet four inches and the low house would need  two feet, something inches. Do you understand why? Justin: Well, explain it to me. I think I do but explain it to me.  Dr. Colo: Okay. So, what’s happening is the left eye is way over from the right eye, so the distance, the angle that’s formed at the end of the gun is much greater than your angle. So, on the high house it’s going left to right, so you have to lead it plus how much you move the gun to the left. On the low house, you would lead it minus how much you moved the gun to the left. So, one needs seven feet, the other needs two feet.  Justin: Yeah.  Dr. Colo: So you, if you had a 40 yard crosser and you didn’t use your thumb and you were conscious of the bird barrel relationship, then you would need six feet for the left to right and three feet for the right to left, but here’s the rub everyone, only if you’re conscious of the bird barrel relationship, only if you’re conscious of the bird barrel relationship, only if you’re looking at that relationship, i.e. conscious. If you’re seeing the relationship subconscious, the brain knows what to do.  Will Fennell: So, we’re always talking about being focused on nothing but the play.  Dr. Colo: Yep and if you are totally absorbed in the play, then you don’t know it’s seven feet, one way or two feet the other, the brain does. So, any minimal conscious involvement when you get tired, when you have doubt, so you’re holding onto the bird  Will Fennell: By saying doubt folks, this means you’re trying really hard to be sure the lead looks right.  Dr. Colo: So now that would be for the person, that would be for the person that’s off dominant with both eyes open. So, they have to be on the B of bang, because if they’re right on the front end of visual control, then the brain knows what to do. They haven’t given the conscious enough time to get involved. You however, with your thumb have a completely different reason, same result, but different reasons. Here’s your reason in using your thumb Justin. I want you to point to something off in the distance with your left hand.  Justin: Okay. Dr. Colo:  Okay, you’re looking at the spot that you’re pointing at your finger is kind of there.  Justin: Right Dr. Colo: Now close your left eye. Do you see how much more vivid your finger is now?  Justin: Yes.  Dr. Colo: Okay. So, when you have that thumb up there and it blocks that left eye, now you have two distinct goalposts. The brain wants to go to the gap between the two of them, if you let it and the only way you let it is to make sure Justin: Right Dr. Colo:  So, you have to shoot on the B of bang for a completely different reason, with both eyes open, being off dominant, but same result, you have to. Your situation, if you were going to shoot both eyes open and just look at the target, Justin, your situation is , if you missed a bird and Kevin said to you, you shot it too fast, you didn’t really see it, you should smile, but if he said to you, Gee Justin, you held on, you made sure, you should frown. Every time you miss the bird should be on the front end of visual control, never on the backend. So what you’ve supported with your thumb, is instead of taking the eyes to the bird and when it lights up, the gun goes off, you’re taking your hands to the bird, taking the barrel, looking at the relationship and pulling the trigger. So, when you have all the time in the world to look at that relationship, you fall off the cliff.  Will Fennell: Oh, yeah Dr. Colo: You’re seeing the bird too clear to soon, therefore too long Justin: Yes, that’s a fact. I can name several scenarios where that’s happened.  Dr. Colo: Now, what’s the solution in your situation? Solution is you can keep using the thumb, you just have to make sure that you don’t see that bird too soon, too clear.  Justin: Right Dr. Colo: But you don’t need to put the thumb up there. Now, you’re sharing, let me preface this whole hour or two hours, three hours. We’re going to get serious, what you’re hearing right now is the eye doctor, what you just heard was the shooting instructor, you have to remember that everything I’m saying is the eye doctor and you have to hold that, in relation to your coach and shooting instructor Justin: Right Dr. Colo: But he’s absolutely right. If we can get you totally concentrating on the bird, minimizing any conscious relationship whatsoever, there’s no reason why you can’t shoot both eyes open Will Fennell:  And the thumb is going to at some point bite you in the butt because it’s going to be a distraction. Dr. Colo: Now there’s ways that you can minimize the chance of getting into trouble. One would be never look down the barrel again, there’s no reason to look down the barrel of the gun.  Will Fennell: Doc, explain what you mean there. Dr. Colo:  Okay. In other words, the circumstance is such that, the rest of your shooting life Justin, you’re going to work from beyond the target, to the target and never inside the target line, that means your whole shooting world is almost spot. For example, let’s say you’ve got a left to right deep quartering bird, the trap is 30 feet to your left. You’re going to pick a spot along that target line, both horizontal and vertical dimension.  It could be a bush that’s 50 feet away, it could be a tree that’s 300 yards away, but you’re going to be looking beyond that target line and when you yell pull, you’re going to come back to the target. When the target lights up, crisp and clear, the gun goes off, you’re going to then go eyes first to the second eye pickup point, which is going to be along the target line, beyond the target line of the second bird and then, you’re going to come back to the second bird and then the gun goes off.  Justin: I’ve heard that before Dr. Colo:  If you’re beyond the target line all the time, and if a little doubt rolls in or a little fatigue, you’re simply getting further away from the gun Justin: Yeah. Dr. Colo: Also Justin: So, you’re saying basically just don’t focus on the trap when the bird comes out of the trap.  Dr. Colo: Well, you can focus on the arm of a trap, if the trap’s outside the break point. Inside the break point, you can do it if you are absolutely never careful, it means in other words, if the break point is so visually as close to the trap, if it’s visually close, like … Will Fennell: Ingoing or outgoing Justin: Okay Dr. Colo:  Like looking at the arm, that’s not a problem, if as long as that target’s clear and crisp, the gun goes off Justin: Yeah Dr. Colo: Okay, so let’s track this back, I know my A.D.D is jumping in okay, but let’s track this back to that B of bang. Now, you can hold, let’s go back to your situation, where you’ve got the thumb okay Justin: Alright Dr. Colo: You can hold onto that bird all the way across the field Justin, as long as you’re focused on the bird is ratcheting, in terms of visual attention. As long as you’re active, then you’re giving the conscious a difficult enough task to keep it out of the way.  So, on that 40 yard crosser that you’re holding on to, if when you first saw it, it was soft and fuzzy and on a scale of one to 10, the clarity and the amount of visual attention on that target was a 2  and then it became a 4 and then it became a 6 and then it became an 8, and when it got to a 10, the gun went off, then you would be fine because you’ve given the conscious, still  the task of zeroing in on that bird, but if you ever did this, Justin, if you started off on a 2 and went to a 6 and went to a 10, and then you went back to an 8 and the gun went off, then you’d have your two goalposts and you’d be slowing down, getting into trouble. At the 10 is the demarcation between active and passive with your visual attention. Will Fennell: You can only hold that 10 for an extremely brief amount of time.  Dr. Colo: Correct, very Good Will. So, Will Fennell: It’s a specific amount of time, it’s not instant. You’ve got a second, second and a half Dr. Colo: No. No, no, half a second Will Fennell: Half a second doc might argue Dr. Colo: A long time. If you think 1001 is a second, that’s, maybe I’ll give you a little more to work with. So, that 10 is a line Justin at that 10. Anything to the left of this line is active, i.e. subconscious, everything to the right of that line is passive, i.e. conscious. The person that’s strong right-eye dominant, shooting right handed, he can encroach into that passive a bit and nothing happens, except he gets lazy and if he gets lazy and he’s a masterclass shooter and one or two targets make all the difference, he’ll get in trouble.  You Justin, from the eye doctor have the absolute best possible dominant position, from the eye doctor and remember, this isn’t the shooting coach. From the eye doctor, you’re better than the guy that’s R1 L1 strong right eye dominant, because the R1 L1 guy, he gets lazy and can get away with it, you’re forced to shoot like all the big boys, all the big boys, the gun goes off at the moment of greatest visual attention. You have no choice Will Fennell: That right Dr. Colo: You also don’t have, whether you shoot both eyes open or whether you put a patch on, whether you wink an eye,  whether you wink an eye, whether you use your thumb, any of those scenarios, it’s a situation where you have no choice and right now, you’re using a band aid to break more targets Justin: Right Dr. Colo:  In order for you to make the switch, you have to make seeing the bird more important than breaking it. If you call me couple of weeks from now and said hey Rich, thanks so much, I shot a 91, I’ve never shot in the 90’s, I really couldn’t have done it without you. I would say, gee, Justin, that’s great but if you call me in two weeks and said, doc, I saw a spot on 87 of those hundred birds and I said gee, that’s great. Justin, how many did you break? And you said break, oh, I’m not sure how many I broke, I would do cartwheels Justin: Yeah.  Dr. Colo: I’ve had the luxury myself of dealing with a number of instructors that really, really understand how important it is, in terms of concentration. Dan Carlisle, while out of the shoot, when I first started getting into this stuff, I started shooting skeet in 72 and that back then, everybody was shooting pictures, they were transitioning back from pass through to sustain lead, and  everybody was shooting conscious pictures and I couldn’t believe that I wanted total concentration on the target and then Dan came out with his video and had that 10 minute whiteboard discussion about looking at the target and I said, I knew I was right and then , 6 or 7 years later, Anthony comes out with his video and he has that whole section on focus, just more reinforces, what I want and then it just goes up  from there, I spent some time with Brian Hughes and obviously, with Dan and Will and just reinforcing how important it is to look at the target.  Frees up a hell of a good point, I’m also being on a tangent now, but this is really important, and this is not me. Well, it is me in that I was doing it with all the shooters that would come, but not to the extent. Anthony Madadeci did a great job in his videos that he did. We’re always trying to get to that 10, when we’re given the opportunity, in terms of visual concentration. Well, the big boys know, the rest of us mortals don’t know that there’s times when the conditions, the time of the day, the environment are such that you can’t get a 10, the best you’re going to get as a 6. Now this is different from having to shoot on flash or getting a target on the board, this is where the conditions for either the environment or you as a shooter, you’ve got floaters and the floaters get in the way and so, you come off of the stand. I don’t want to hear you say, the bird just wasn’t really clear. Hey, when the bird’s not real clear, you determine what’s the clearest and that’s where you shoot. So, if you’re there in that environment and the best it is a 6, you have to recognize what a 6 looks like.  Justin: Yeah   Dr. Colo: And when it’s a 6, the gun has to go off. Now, it’s not the vision guys, it’s what the vision does to the confidence doubt balance. If you accept that it’s going to be a 6, then when it’s a 6, the gun goes off, you’re comfortable with it. If you’re still hanging, I’m trying to make it a 10 and it’s not going to be there, the conscious is now back into the equation and all kinds of bad things happen. Sorry if the A.D.D picked that up, but I was scared I forget that if I didn’t bring it up right now.  Will Fennell: Yep and the shooting coach will join in right now and that’s where during the plan, you decide on what the level of susceptibility is and what the detail you can make out, is based on. Dr. Colo: Absolutely. So now, let’s just go, one more thing that you can kind of do and this is the eye doctor, because this is above my pay grade in relation to, where in everything, but I have to get this last one out Will Fennell: Doc, your pay grade’s pretty high but Dr. Colo: Okay, for the off dominant person or the person that’s one eye, I strongly believe that you have to go to your eye pick up point first, then your whole point, because if you’re in a pre-mounted or cheat mount type of position, if you go to the whole point first, and then the eye point you’re connected to the gun and you want to do everything you can to see the lead, but not look at it. So how do you do this? First, you’d have to recognize the fact that peripheral stimulation in terms of directionality is as good as central positioning, what do I mean by all that gobbledygoob? If you look at something, the next time you’re at a field, pick the A trap and look at the A, look solid at the A and then point to the C that might be 40 yards to the right of the A. While you’re looking at the A Justin , point to the C  and now, take your eye off the A and look where you’re re pointing, you’re going to be pointing dead nuts on the C every time Justin: Why is that? Dr. Colo:  Because your peripheral stimulation is directionally, very, very exact and the reason, because the genes that couldn’t do that, didn’t last very long when the tetradactyl flew over. So, it’s a Darwinian thing, it’s the situation where you can get a very exact whole point, while you’re soft focusing on your eye pick-up point. There’s so much more to go over, Will you think we should end this and we’ll do a part two? What do you think? Will Fennell: Yeah, sounds about right. Justin:  Yeah, we’ll do a part 2. Dr. Colo: Or you want to keep going? I’m just scared. I’m losing all the codes  Justin: Nah, I’ll tell you what we’ll do.  Let’s do it Will Fennell: First, do a little recap on some of the things that probably raised eyebrows here, for instance, your eye dominance doesn’t switch, your eye dominance is based on how your brain is wired. The only thing that will switch it would be severe health issues or brain injuries, right doc? Dr. Colo: Yup. Oh, that brings up another point and I have to get this one in. Every time you talk, we’re never going to get off. Okay, so there is something that, especially you instructors, where you check the dominance and it just doesn’t make sense. What can be a factor that can really screw up your evaluation of eye dominance is muscle imbalance.  Will Fennell: Yep.  Dr. Colo: The tendency for eyes to turn in, out, up or down. Now, I’m a little reticent about doing this, but I’m going to do it, you just have to be careful when you do it, there’s a way for you, as a lay person to kind of get a feel for that. If someone is missing consistently above or below target, and you don’t think it’s related to dominant factors,  if you have them look at a horizontal line, like the line of a roof Justin: Okay Dr. Colo: Don’t let them do it, you cover one eye, they’re not pointing at anything,  they’re just looking at the roof line and you move your hand from one eye to the other,  if that line jumps up or down then, you know. Now you’re just measuring the tendency, you’re not measuring the actual deviation, but if it jumps up or down, it means there is a vertical tendency. Will Fennell: Meaning what doc? Dr. Colo:  Meaning, there’s either a congenital situation or, in vertical cases, a lot of times it’s diabetes or thyroid, but meaning that the gun is not shooting where it did two weeks ago or a month ago Will Fennell:  And this is because of a health issue or muscle imbalance.  Dr. Colo: Correct. Now, if you feel as though it’s a left to right thing, then have them look at a vertical line and make that move, now if you cover one eye and you move it to the left and it moves the same way, then it’s a turning out of the eye. If it moves the opposite way that it’s a turning in of the eye, you can create that to demonstrate it, I can  force you to have a tendency out. So, if you looked at the vertical line, only two feet away and you moved your hand from right to left, you’ll see the line moves left. Will Fennell:  So, doc, this is not very common, correct?  Dr. Colo: No, no, not common at all. I have to get that out there because I don’t want everybody to go to that Will Fennell: There you go, that’s my problem. Really, from I’ve been working with you, I’ve seen two people with this. So, it was one person and that’s out of thousands, thousands. Dr. Colo:  Before I get off and we’ve got a lot more to do, let me get some examples that are so bizarre, to show you how messing with dominance, there’s so many people on a golf course that should be shooting because of dominance. One very vivid example with someone that got a very expensive gun and was fitted and was told that now we’ll just check your gun fit at the patterning board, that this will only take a few minutes and four and a half hours later, gets it completed, then goes home and he wore a patch for a couple years and went out to the field, and the first thing his friend told him was, hey, where’s your patch? Put your patch on.  So, for a year, he’s wearing a patch, comes to me, ready to give up the game and he’s R2 L3 and the gun fitter went to great, great lengths. His gun looked like a hockey stick, went to great lengths to fit him at the cyclopean position and he put the patch on and went right back to being way, way off for good. I take the patch off him, and he smoke and everything and I could just go on and on and on, with example after example after example. So next time we can get into stuff like gun fit, like prescription  Will Fennell: Glasses to contacts, changing your gun fit.  Dr. Colo:  Yep.  Will Fennel: Okay.  Dr. Colo:  Consciousness and subconsciousness related to patterning board that makes you more conscious or going to your shooting instructor or you’re in a learning, not a performing platform, where you’re going to be more conscious because you’re learning the difference between using a Garmin device that actually measures in real time the centre of your pattern, while you’re shooting a bird, compared to the patterning board, For example, Justin, in your case with the R2 L2, if you just got a little bit of extra cast off,  with both eyes open  you might be home free.  Justin: Yeah. So, you can adjust the gun to correct your eye dominance is what you’re saying.  Dr. Colo: Said by the eye doctor.  Will Fennell: Watch Greenwood do it, time after time. Dr. Colo:  I don’t want to get out of my shoes. I don’t want, like I say, remember everything that’s said here is said by the eye doctor, not the shooting instructor. Justin: Yeah, but it makes sense, you know,  Dr. Colo: You were a little reticent at the beginning where we talked in terms of how complicated this stuff is, and yes, it is complicated, but is everything falling in Justin?  Justin: Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense, I’m going to have to go back and listen to it again, even though I’m part of it, but that’s what this is for so you can go back and listen to it over and over again Will Fennell: You know, doc, I was talking to Justin before we started, while you were getting ready and he said, he’s left that dominant and I asked him a few questions and I knew that he was shooting masterclass scores. I told Justin, I told you that the time that we would test it, but that I would bet that you weren’t going to end up being strongly left eye dominant. Justin: Yeah.   Will Fennell:  And then doc, when you sent me the picture I started laughing, was exactly what I thought it would be.  Justin: How about that?   Dr. Colo: So, Justin, do you see why I love this so much? I feel so good, I can just do so much, and then the beauty is, then they go back to their shooting instructor and he’s got to get him to break the targets, I don’t have to get him to break one target. Oh, you know what I want to do? I want to congratulate Will Fennell on winning his concurrent,  I don’t know if you call it concurrent in the world skeet pass, but his age group in the world skeet pass, he got the gold medal. He and Kurt Halbach, I don’t know if you remember my first podcast, he was the 60-year-old with the 28 vision and the two of them were in a shutoff together.  Will Fennell: Yeah. Kurt’s been a long time student, it was pretty special shooting off with your standard for that and this is something that we can talk about in the next phase, but the shutoff was in really, really dark conditions. Kurt and I shot the best of the group in the shoot off. I got lucky, got ahead of him a little bit, but we were both wearing glasses that Dr. Colo made us and we obviously could see the targets better than the other people on the field and one of them, a former world champion in his age group immediately came to us and said, what are those glasses and where do I get one? Dr. Colo: He called me Will and I said, I can see you in February, he said no, no, no, no I want them now, okay and then I’ll change them in February if you want Justin: Wow  Will Fennell:  So, that’s the Dr. Colo drive safe, Zeiss Porsche drive lenses that are just phenomenal Dr. Colo:  No, no, no we’re not turning this into an infomercial Will Fennell: Well, I will because they’re unbelievable, I probably wear them 75-80% of the time shooting now  Justin:  So, we’re going to end this one. I’m sure we’ve got a lot more information we can cover in another one, so Dr. Colo:  I’m never talked out and I’m exhausted Justin:  Well, I appreciate you coming on with us and giving us a lot of information.  Dr. Colo:  Well, I gave a lot, very truthfully Justin, the first one went so well, so well that I was scared to do other one, because I didn’t think it could ever be as good as that and what drove me to do it, is I really think that it’s information that can help a lot of people. Justin: It’s all about growing the sport, giving people information that they never had an opportunity to get, without calling you and making an appointment or talking to a coach and listening to what they do versus going to see them, I mean, it’s a lot of information that we try to give out to people and hopefully make them better or make them understand more and that’s just what we’re trying to do.  [podcast src=”https://html5-player.libsyn.com/embed/episode/id/16963700/height-orig/90/theme/custom/thumbnail/yes/direction/forward/custom-color/ba2000/height/90″ height=”90″ width=”100%” placement=”bottom” theme=”custom”]