Phil Gray: Championship winning shooter and coach

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[00:01:23] Welcome to another episode of shotgun sports USA. Today we have Phil Gray and Tom C. joining us. And I think this is the first time Phil has ever been on a podcast episode. We hope you enjoy the show and walk away with something new. Also, if you're more of a podcast watcher, catch this episode on our YouTube channel, shotgun sports USA. This is something new for us. If you like the format, let us know in the comments and who knows, we might make this the new norm. Let's get on with the show.

[00:02:09] Tom C. here with shotgun sports USA and I'm proud to have Phil Gray on. Appreciate you coming on Phil. I appreciate you having me. Yeah, yeah, for sure. We've been talking about this for a couple of weeks now and, and finally found time in the schedule to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Finding time in the time difference as well. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:35] Yeah. We, we, we had, uh, took me a minute to figure out what time it would be there versus here, the 1830 and the 630 here, the AM PM, all that, uh, took, took a minute. But, uh, but anyways, I, uh, for, for a lot of people on here, I've known Phil a long time, a fantastic shot from the UK. Um, tell us a little bit about, tell us a little bit about your background.

[00:03:04] Uh, well, I started shooting as, uh, as young as I can remember. Uh, my dad shot, uh, my dad shot mainly, mainly game, which is over here, big pheasants and, uh, some wood pigeons and different things. And, uh, you know, I remember getting my first air rifle when I was sort of seven, eight years old for Christmas and fell in love with it ever since then.

[00:03:29] I mean, for the last 25 years, I suppose you could give me any gun and I'd be as happy, as happy as Larry really. Um, I started shooting shotguns when I was about 10, I suppose, um, competitions around 12, 13 and, and fell in love with it from then. You know, the competition side of things come into it and, and the bug for winning and trying to win and trying to improve got stronger and stronger.

[00:03:57] And here we are now in 20, 23 or 24 years later. Wow. Yeah. That's how pretty much everybody gets into it. Um, I started, I started soon as I could walk and, uh, over here. That's something I I'd, I'd love to do is go over there and shoot you shoot game over there. Um, I talked to every time I, I talked to somebody from the UK, I asked about the game season and obviously the guys at game board.

[00:04:27] And, and, um, I just, I would love to go over there and I'm going to one day go over there and shoot. Um, that's such a, that's such a cool experience that we just don't have here. It's so different than the, than the waterfowl over, over here. Um, it's such a proper, uh, form of hunting. I, I don't know. It's just, it's a little different than anything we have here. Oh, it's amazing.

[00:04:49] It's like, I think if, uh, if it wasn't for the competing side of things, then I would pick shooting game over plays. Um, but unfortunately you can't win anything shooting game. So the addiction to winning is, uh, is too strong to give it up, but no, you have to come over and you'll definitely have to come through some pheasants, come through some high pheasants in, in Wales or Scotland or something. And it's, and it's an experience you'll never forget. I can assure you. Oh yeah. I, I've talked about doing that for a long time.

[00:05:19] It's finding, finding the time to do it. And it seems like it's, uh, it's kind of hard to get on. You have to schedule it out pretty far in advance. Yeah. Yeah. Like that we, um, some of our dates have been, like would have been booked for this season during last season. So, you know, a lot of the premium estates, uh, they book up fast. You know, there's a lot of people that want to do it. Um, but it's, uh, it's pretty special for sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's something I'll definitely get over and do.

[00:05:47] Uh, this year is pretty jam packed for me, but the next few years I'll have to, I'll have to make it a point to, to get over there and do that. I've always said that, but, um, anyways, if you, if you had, I've always been curious to ask, have you ever had any coaching by anyone or is it, is it all self-driven? Uh, when I was, when I was really young about probably when I first died, when I was 12, 13, I had two lessons from a guy called Carl Bloxham.

[00:06:15] Uh, so Carl was a world champion, uh, in English sporting probably, don't quote me on this, early nineties. So when I was born, I think he's probably won two or three world sportings. So, and he was renowned to be, uh, a very good coach as well. So when I was younger, I remember having two lessons with him and, uh, from there just picked up little bits.

[00:06:41] I was very lucky, uh, where I come from in England, there was, there was shots such as Barry Simpson. So Barry Simpson was probably one of, if not the best at the time in the, in the early nineties and I think late eighties as well.

[00:06:56] So at the same time, um, AJ Smoker Smith was about so, but I picked up a lot from him and a few others and tried to try to watch as much as I can and pick a little bit from someone and a little bit from someone else and kind of mold it together. Really? Yeah.

[00:07:15] I mean, you know, I had a, everybody knows that, that associates me with Wendell, you know, Wendell's my coach and, and like a lot of young people coming up, I, I went to him from young age and stuck with him and, and, you know, I hear you talking and a couple of times so far, you've said, uh, you've talked about your competitiveness, you know, your, your desire to win.

[00:07:39] And, um, yeah, you talk, you talk about people like Brandon and you, and you talk about people like Wendell and some, some people have been in the sport a long time. Coaching was not as available. And, uh, we'll talk about that in a second for yourself. That's something you've started doing full time.

[00:07:58] But, um, you know, I think most people would agree that regardless of, regardless of the coaching you've received or the lessons you've taken, a common denominator in everybody that, that competes at a high level is just that, that, that unending determination to win.

[00:08:22] And just that feeling of that satisfaction of winning and the competitive drive in someone. And there's so many different styles and, you know, I, I've watched you shoot quite a bit and it appears a little different than myself. Um, just, you know, how you stay with the bird and you getting into the gun and, and just, there are different points I could point out.

[00:08:43] But, um, wouldn't you agree that typically there's a lot of ways to break a target, but it doesn't matter what it, what kind of method you use unless you are just a very competitive, determined person to win.

[00:09:00] Um, look, as you talk about it and, and then they say that I suppose there's three main styles of shooting, you know, maintain lead swing through pull away, but you could probably add another 10 into it where people take half of one and half of another. And if it works for you, it works for you, but you could have the best fundamentals.

[00:09:20] You could have the best technique, the best gun, the best ammo, everything, unless you have that desire and that drive to win, you'll never win. I mean, you take any great sportsman in any, in any sport, you know, you look at Roger Federer in tennis and, and, and people like that. Ronnie O'Sullivan in snooker and different things like that. They all have this absolute desire to win.

[00:09:48] Yes, they have unbelievable talent and, and technique, but their desire to win is what gets them through. Yeah. And, you know, we were, we were talking about a few, few guys before we started and you think about, there's not two people that typically shoot identical. I mean, obviously I'm pretty similar to Wendell and, and there's other people that probably appear to shoot the same styles.

[00:10:18] I know Anthony's a popular coach over here. There's a lot of people that shoot similar to his style, but that's something that I have picked up on or noticed more in the last few years is you have so many different people with so many different styles. It's hard to say this, this style works better than anything.

[00:10:41] You almost have to, for me, you know, unless you're winning, you're always trying to figure out a way to win and you have to look, you have to, you know, look around and say, well, maybe, maybe I need to change a little bit of what I'm doing. No question. I've always said to everyone, I think this sport is a lifetime apprenticeship. I don't think you'll ever finish learning, you know, it doesn't matter how many tens of thousands of shells you shoot.

[00:11:08] You know, I've been shooting 20, 23, 24 years and shot hundreds of thousands of shells and still sometimes shoot clay in a certain manner and didn't probably mean to shoot it like that. But then thought, well, that felt easy. Let's try that again. And then think, well, why haven't I been doing that all along? So I don't think you'll ever finish learning and I think you can, you can improve your game all the time.

[00:11:32] And the way that the way that the sport is going, I think you have to consistently improve your own game because everyone's just getting better and better all the time. Yeah, that's something I've talked about on previous podcasts is the competition level and the change of the sport over, over, I mean, really worldwide. I can speak assuredly of it here. Things are different now than there were five years ago. What, what would you say it's like in the UK?

[00:12:01] Uh, no question. It's the same. You know, there's, we have this conversation all the time and I guess there's, there's the top 10 over here. There's a lot of people that consistently win or, and the top 10 that you expect to win all the time. But there's now 10 people behind that that could win at any point. Um, and they're getting to the point where they're, they're nearly in the top 10.

[00:12:27] And then there's another 10 behind them that are consistently good. Or, you know, if they have the day where the timing's on and everything's perfect and the target suit and they could win at any point, you know? So I think it shows, um, no one really dominates over here at the minute as, uh, I think it's been, I don't think anyone's really dominated since George and Richard maybe.

[00:12:54] You know, and I think in the last five, maybe even 10 years, there hasn't been a year where one person has dominated. Um, there'd be a year where one person may have won a little bit more than everyone else, but they're not winning everything. You know, there's every shoot, all our big shoots are usually won by a different person. So I think that's, that says a lot for itself. Yeah, that's pretty, uh, that says a lot for the, the, the field as a whole.

[00:13:22] You know, everybody's pretty, uh, pretty equally determined to win. I think over here, you know, I would say the same. It's, it's an absurd amount of people that are good. There's a lot of good people. Um, and it's happened in the last, I think five years where kind of have the same thing where the top five to 10 names are constantly at the top, but it's a lot of other people mixed in now too.

[00:13:48] And, uh, I think it, I think the simple answer is, is the access to coaching. Um, people look forward to the circuit over here, you know, the, the championship tour, the regionals, the U S opens, there's a lot of coaching. And, um, you know, it's, uh, people are just, there's just more people in the sport. I think, you know, you look at the tournament numbers.

[00:14:11] I know you came over a couple of times last year and you go to the world English and there's over 2000 people there, or you go to the Jack links and there's 1500 people, or they, they fill up on the first, you know, the tournaments, the pre-registration fills up. Um, in the first, you know, two days of it being up and it's a year in advance. I think there's excitement driven towards competing and going to these tournaments.

[00:14:42] And, uh, I just think it, it, it just makes for a bigger field of people to have to beat. Yeah, no question. But that's something, you know, you, you, uh, so to get back a little bit about more personal on you, you came up shooting in and working a full-time job and shooting on the side and giving lessons on the side. And here just recently, you've started coaching full-time.

[00:15:10] Um, yeah, I, um, I left school at 16 and went straight into the construction industry. Um, and 18, 18 years, 18 years later, I'm still, well, we're still up till this year. Still heavily in history and shooting alongside, you know, working five, six days a week, as much as some people don't believe it.

[00:15:37] Um, and then shooting on the weekends and, you know, shooting late evenings if I could. And, and then, um, I suppose two or three years ago, I started doing a little bit of coaching. A few people asked me to, to give them a few pointers, uh, start doing a few bits of coaching here and there. Uh, and then I started going to the Republic, uh, Republic of Ireland and I've now got a massive clientele base over there. So I go there once a month.

[00:16:05] So I was kind of juggling that, um, with work, shooting myself, private life as well. Um, more and more people were asking. I didn't really have a, I didn't really have time to take on too many clients. Um, so I kind of just picked my, picked and choose who I wanted to coach. As bad as that sounds, it was only because I didn't have time.

[00:16:26] And then, um, obviously I went to UAE, um, late December and I, with the, with the mindset that when I come back, I would go full-time coaching and, um, put my all into it. Yeah. How is, uh, how's that worked out so far? Are you scheduled staying pretty full and traveling a lot or staying close to home? I only really, I announced it last week that I was going to go full-time.

[00:16:56] I'm still in the, uh, still in the, um, process of getting a social media page up and different things for my coaching. But the moment I, um, I put it up, my inbox on, uh, Facebook and other social media blew up. And, uh, the last few weeks I've been pretty flat out a few days here and there where I've been a little bit quiet, but, uh, I'd say 80% of the time I'm full-time coaching at the minute, which is good, which is enough for me.

[00:17:23] Because, uh, look, I've done it because, like, my passion for this sport is, is massive. It's, it's always been the biggest part of my life and I absolutely love it. I love it as much now as I ever did. And helping someone to shoot or improve gives me as much satisfaction actually as breaking plays myself. Uh, but at the same time, I always knew it was going to give me more time behind the gun.

[00:17:53] You know, I'm out of ground every day, the guns in the car, if I have a spare hour here or there, I can go out and shoot some plays. Uh, I have off days now where I can go and shoot. So it was kind of a win-win for me. Yeah. Well, I kind of done a little bit of the reverse. I, it, through college, I coached a lot to, uh, just have some kind of income and I would,

[00:18:20] I would go to school some of the days or I would go to school three days a week and coach or vice for two days a week and coach three days a week. And so I did a lot of coaching. I did some traveling all the way up until probably my until about, I got out of school and then family business. I jumped in, had to, had to jump into family business, been doing that for several years now. I mean, probably five or six time flies, but, um, you know, it's, it's been an adjustment

[00:18:49] for me to go from shooting behind the gun, being at a range every day, having access to getting done and going out and shooting couple, you know, practicing just right there and just seeing targets every day to working and having your mind not so focused on shooting. Because when you're coaching, you're a hundred percent focused on watching someone, watching their moves, watching how the reading birds.

[00:19:19] And, um, you know, it's been an adjustment. I I'd say that there's benefits, there's pros and cons, but I definitely think there's more benefits than the negatives to being out at the range every day. What, how have you, do you anticipate any changes? Do you think since you spent, you know, pretty good amount of time, uh, at, uh, you know, FM and C for Jara setting up, do you think you're shooting mentally?

[00:19:49] Your mind is focused on shooting more than work. And what do you, what do you expect for yourself competing? Look, I, um, I think in my head, I don't see anything other than positives. Uh, uh, like you say, you're stood there, you're watching clays, your eyes are focused on clays, uh, you're drumming into people, your technique of how to shoot. Uh, I guess that stays in your mind a little bit more.

[00:20:17] You're seeing mistakes that people are making. I guess, you know, I don't think, I don't think it can ever be a bad thing. I feel like you can learn off people as well. Once you're coaching them, you can learn off their mistakes. Um, my biggest thing will be the time behind the gun. Um, and probably as well, you know, fitness, you know, I could, the construction industry is not easy. I could have five days at work and be a real strenuous five days and then go try, go shooting. So for me, that's going to be a massive bonus.

[00:20:45] Um, but the biggest bonus for me is going to be time behind the gun. Um, I suppose, you know, I never, I don't shoot clays during the winter. I have five months off every year. Um, I come back from FMSC and I've gone straight into coaching and I won't deny it. I've been behind the gun most days or every other day. And, uh, you know, my shooting is, is good at the minute. I couldn't be happier with it.

[00:21:15] And the more shells I put through the gun, it's only going to get better. So for me, it's only going to be a bonus. Yeah. I mean, it, it has, it has to be. And I think what you said was kind of was admirable. A lot of people that shoot, you know, you'll go to a tournament and it'll be somebody that, you know, uh, makes their living coaching and they'll, and, and you'll say, man, you look really good and it's like, everybody always says, yeah, I hadn't touched my gun in four

[00:21:44] weeks or I hadn't done this or I hadn't done that. And I've always kind of, it's like, man, you just shot a 98. You telling me you haven't touched your gun in four or five weeks, you know, I guess it can happen, but I had to do it. A hundred percent. I come back from F, I come back from FMSC and I went shooting them. My first year I shot an 86 and I thought, well, I can't actually tell you the last time I shot in the eighties and I said to someone, I've never felt so disconnected from my gun.

[00:22:13] Like it was, everything felt hard work. And then, you know, two weeks later and I probably shot 1500 to 2000 shells from a gun purposely. And, and there you go, I go out of the weekend and shoot 96, 97, 97 on a seriously hard course as well. And you think, well, that's only a benefit from me shooting. So, uh, I have to shoot a lot of clays as well. I'll openly admit it. If I, if I'm not shooting a lot of clays, my, my shooting shows, you know, for me to be

[00:22:43] at top form, I have to shoot a lot of clays. I think my, my style, my method relies a lot on timing. And if I'm not shooting, it seriously shows. Yeah. What did, what would you say is your predominant style of, of shooting? I, uh, it would be maintain lead.

[00:23:03] I shoot 80% of my clays maintain lead and the other, I pull off some things, um, come off the, come off the clay for some things. Uh, I shoot a little bit of swing through predominantly on till and driven. I feel like it's the only way you can shoot until when they're driven. Um, and quartering targets are changed, changed a couple of years ago. Shooting quartering targets, I shoot them a slight swing through.

[00:23:33] I was missing the odd one maintain lead, just anticipating the shot a little bit too much. And I thought, you know, I was missing probably one in 50, but a 2015, 25 yard quartering target, you can't miss if you want to win something. So I changed a little bit then. A bit like we were talking about earlier, trying to always improve your game. Um, but yeah, I'd say 70 to 80% of my targets a shot maintain lead. Yeah.

[00:24:01] But I can, I connect to a clay early. So, uh, you know, I hold on a clay for, you know, I'm not a slow shooter and I can shoot fast when I want, but I connect to a clay early. So it's, it's, it's, I don't maintain lead in the way that most people do where they hold out and, and come into the clay almost more of a, like a diminishing lead. Mine is, I am onto the clay out of the bat. Like as soon as I can get onto that clay, I'm connecting it with my eyes, my hands.

[00:24:31] And I suppose I feel the lead early on. Um, and then I'm quite picture based in a way. Um, I want, by no means do I look at the gun, but I know exactly where my gun is at all times. Um, look, I think you can, you can talk about methods and, and, you know, you'll have someone that shoots a hundred percent swing through and, and different things.

[00:25:00] I don't think there's a wrong or a white, uh, right way. I don't think they're wrong and I don't think I'm a hundred percent right, but I think once you've got a method and you've proven that it works, you stick to it and you, you adjust it to you. Yeah. I think, I mean, I think it's whatever you have confidence in and you see people winning that, that shoot different methods. You know, Anthony's big on pull away. He's obviously shot well. Um, you know, you just see all these different methods winning.

[00:25:29] I think it comes down to what you have confidence in, what you, what you put, what you set yourself forward to practicing the most. I mean, I, I can understand what you mean by connecting to a target early. Um, you know, I'm very, uh, always been taught to, uh, you know, look back, see the target as, as early as you can. I typically try to see it off the plate. Um, and I think that, that leads, uh, that lends to connecting early and I visually connect

[00:25:58] very early in my timing, the move, the timing of the move starts for me. I shoot predominantly, um, uh, maintain and it starts, the feel starts early on. Um, and it can only start from a visual, you know, visual cue. And, uh, I did no question that most people, just whatever you feel comfortable with is, is what to stick with.

[00:26:26] I'm not going to be a person that says it's the only way to shoot because obviously people are winning multiple different ways and I don't win everything. And look, it's, uh, I don't think there's a wrong or a right way. Like I just said, um, at the end of the day, if you have said target at said distance, doing a certain speed with a certain cartridge speed, the lead is the same. You know, you, whatever way you shoot it, you must pull the trigger at the same point. It might look slightly different in your eyes because you've got more gun speed or less

[00:26:55] speed, but at the end of the day, we're still trying to all get to the same point. And to me, it's how do you get to that point? The easiest way for you and the way you feel more comfortable with, you know, there'll be certain targets, no question that suits swing through better. And there's certain targets that suit maintain lead better. Um, but I think you work around that and, uh, you find the sweet spot for you. Yeah, exactly.

[00:27:24] And, um, it's just whatever you stick with, I think, whatever you start with, whatever you stick with, um, but you know, we can have a debate about this for the rest of the night. Um, everybody always debates about that. Something that, something that I want to get into a little bit, uh, just because of your involvement. And, um, I was actually, I knew about this back at the Jack links. I was with James Bradley day.

[00:27:54] He jumped in the cart with me and was telling me about you and, and, and him going to FMSC and how much time you spent over there setting that tournament up. And I didn't go, but obviously looking at the pictures and, and, uh, it was awesome. Um, but the back behind the scenes sounds like just from hearing him talk was kind of wild. And you were there like seven weeks ahead of time. Is that, is that right?

[00:28:23] Yeah, we actually, uh, me, James, uh, Owen Jones, who's, um, who owns, uh, Hodnick shooting ground, probably the best, well, not probably the best shooting ground in the country. Um, he himself and a young lad called Tom Betts, who shoots a lot of trap, just come to give his hand, uh, we actually flew out on the 26th of December. Uh, and was there. Yeah. Sick.

[00:28:53] I think it was six weeks before the main event. Wow. So when you showed up, was there nothing there or, or machines brought in and was the course laid out and designed? No, nothing. It's a, it's a complete, uh, virgin ground. It's, uh, it's actually a national park.

[00:29:13] Um, we look, we have, we're extremely privileged, um, to be able to help, um, set such an amazing shoot. And, um, his highness Mohammed bin Hamid al-Shaki is an absolute incredible guy who, who had this, had this dream for this amazing event and sourced this, this incredible venue that he, he went

[00:29:41] looking for and he, you know, he's found, um, he found a venue that you wouldn't find anywhere else in the world with cliffs at 80 meters above you and, uh, shooting at water this year down the water was 45 meters below your feet. Um, so we're very lucky and very privileged that his highness, um, put his trust in us to help him produce the shoot that he dreamt of.

[00:30:12] Um, but it was, uh, it's a great experience. Um, it's hard work. Um, you know, there's, you can't just put a, uh, can't just put a trap on the back of a gator and, and take it where it needs to go. You know, some of them traps were four or 500 meter walks and up mountains and down rocks and different things. And it's, um, I said, when we was out there, we probably actually should have done a video

[00:30:42] on the setup. It's, uh, probably the hardest, hardest terrain you could ever imagine to set a shoot, but it's pretty wild and it turned out pretty amazing. And we, uh, we're super happy with how it, how it panned out. Yeah. I hate, I hate, I haven't been to, um, I haven't been to it, but I was talking to, uh, I was

[00:31:09] talking to Gibbon and actually he flew straight from there. Gibbon and Karen flew straight from there to Jack links and, uh, he struggled on the first day and, um, that I shot with him and he got to talking about what he had just come from and, um, the setup from that, from what he described, where the targets were and where the machines were in the videos I saw.

[00:31:34] Uh, so you all would, would, would, would roll these or carry these machines up these huge mountains. Yeah. I don't guess there's any other way to get them up there. No, just a big pool and loads of people. We, uh, we also had a lot of labor to be fair. Um, we had probably nine, uh, Pakistani laborers who were incredible. And I will honestly tell you about them.

[00:32:04] The shoe wouldn't go ahead. Um, the places that they will carry a machine with no fear is, uh, is pretty impressive to watch. Yeah. So they were doing all the carrying, you were just doing the directing. They're pointing, you know, no, we don't. Yeah. Your finger got the workout more. There's plenty to do. That's for sure. So was it a collaborative effort in how to set this tournament up or was it kind of laid

[00:32:33] out prior to you all getting there or? Um, so myself and George went over the February before, uh, February, 2024. And we picked, pick the positions for the layout. Um, and then we designed the targets together. You know, it's an amazing working with George, you know, he's been my idol since, since I was 10 years old. So getting to do something so amazing with him has been pretty cool.

[00:33:01] And, you know, we'd, we designed the targets together and he'd have his ideas and I'd put my ideas in and, you know, he, he'd quite often go for my ideas. And if he thought my idea wasn't right, he'd, he'd tell me and, you know, it was pretty cool to do that with him. So me and him laid it out and, uh, had a, uh, had a sketch of the, um, of the targets we wanted.

[00:33:26] Um, and then from there, uh, myself, James Owen and Tom went out on boxing day and started setting targets to the script. Um, and then George came out, I think, I think it was 10 days or something before the main event. And we just started tweaking a little bit and picking colors of targets and choosing pairs

[00:33:52] and seeing if things worked and kept looking at it and thinking, well, this is going to shoot one way and this is going to shoot another. Maybe we should soften this one up a little bit and maybe we should stiffen this one up a little bit, but, uh, it, it went incredibly smoothly. You know, there's an amazing team behind the scenes, amazing technical team. Uh, there's amazing women in the office. Uh, it's just a, it's a great place to be. And, uh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:21] I know that, uh, from talking to Gibbon and Karen and then looking at the scores, you all definitely got it stiff enough. Um, I think when you have terrain, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, terrain like that, you, you have to use it. And, you know, me and George were looking at it and it was a bit like, you know, there's a peg where you've got a cliff with a ridge 70 meters above you and you think, well, you can't not throw a target off there. You know, it's screaming for it. Yeah.

[00:34:50] And then, and then we come up with the, uh, the brave idea to put a peg on the side of a quarry and shoot down 45 meters to water. So there we were in January building platforms in eight or nine meters of water to take traps. Yeah. Uh, but you know, it had to be done. You know, I don't think there's in all the years I've been shooting, I don't think I've

[00:35:16] ever shot 45 or 50 meters below my feet and against water with no background to judge distance and speed. And, um, I think, I think we said it, I think we got it pretty good. Um, I personally wouldn't have changed anything. And I'm, I can probably speak for George as well that he wouldn't have changed anything. Um, you know, I think there's so many reasons that that place is hard to shoot.

[00:35:43] You know, the background, you have to see it for yourself, but when you get there, it is the most vast mountain range you could ever imagine. And, you know, it's huge spaces and huge open sky. And I, I think it's quite hard to judge distance and speed. And, uh, yeah, we certainly caught a few people out, but then again, there were certainly people that shot scores that we didn't think was there on certain layouts.

[00:36:13] Yeah. Well, I mean, if you didn't, if you didn't use the terrain and that's what everybody would be talking about, it would be a waste. Yeah, exactly. You know, that would be, go ahead. You, you just couldn't find a better place for a clay shoot terrain wise. You kind of, it was almost made for clay shooting.

[00:36:37] And it was just, yeah, every, every corner you turn, you could put another, another stand and another 10 traps and you could create stuff everywhere. It was just, it makes, it makes our life a lot easier. You know, when you, when you've got a flat field and you've got to get creative and then when you've got a mountain range with mountains and cliffs and shooting below your feet above you, it, it makes, it makes our life a lot easier.

[00:37:07] It sounds like the hardest thing would have been deciding which spot was better over the next. Yeah. There's some, there's some spots there that you think, yeah, we'd love to use this, but this one is just as good. And, um, there was a lot of planning went into it. Um, but I wouldn't have picked any other spot than we picked this time. I feel like we got it pretty perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody I've talked to has nothing but fantastic things to say about it. Makes me a regret.

[00:37:37] Not, not just, uh, just biting the bullet and going over there. No, look, I think, um, I don't think there's such thing as a perfect shoot, but I think, I think the team got as close to perfect as you could get. I'm obviously going to be a little bit biased, but, uh, I personally haven't heard a bad word about it. And the way it blew up on social media and everyone was raving about it and, you know, everyone was regretting not coming or they couldn't come for some reason, but they really wish they could have done.

[00:38:07] And yeah, it's, uh, everyone who come would have witnessed something special, I think. Yeah. Well, I mean, you should be biased setting something like that up is, uh, I mean, I have never been personally involved from the beginning, like you just described, but setting something like that, setting something up, any, any tournament, I've obviously talked to a lot of people and before and afters.

[00:38:35] And, and I mean, even a year in advance, some people setting up for a U S open or regionals and the amount of planning, the amount of coordination, the amount of moving parts that have to be, that have to all come together. Uh, everything has to be thought of or people, people will see it and people will, uh, people will, will make a remark about it. And that's just, um, that's it. That's impressive on its, on its own aside from on a different level than whoever shoots and wins.

[00:39:05] Um, yeah, 100%. So that'd be interesting working, working with George. That's a pretty unique experience on something like that. It's his experience and years, all the things he's seen. Um, look, what that, what that man doesn't know about shooting isn't really worth knowing. So, um, you know, when he says something will work or something won't work, you, you know, even sometimes you think, Oh, I think it'd work. You, you go with George, you know, he's, he's been there and seen more clays and seen

[00:39:35] more shoots and than any man alive. Yeah. Yeah. He's a, yeah, he's a, a massive asset to the team and, and the shoot wouldn't have been anything like it was without him. That's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. He's definitely somebody he's the best you can have on your side. He's, uh, my question. It kind of brings me into a, another topic. We all have a little bit in common is, uh, you just, you just, uh, you're a paratsy shooter.

[00:40:04] I am. Been shooting paratsy for what next past four years, four, five years. Four and four and 85 years. Yeah. Yeah. You've, you've had a lot of success, uh, in the last four or five years. I mean, you've always been, you've always shot really well and, and one things and, and it, you know, I've really noticed, uh, you've gotten on right now. Really well with, with your paratsy.

[00:40:31] You know, I was talking, I was having, uh, I was coaching earlier this week and I was talking to someone about it and I said, I've never blamed my tools in all the years I've been shooting. You know, I was, I was bretta before paratsy and I never blamed my gun. I never blamed my cartridge, nothing. And I generally never thought a gun would give me more clays, but I would honestly say that gun has given me more clays.

[00:40:59] Um, whether it be the confidence I have with it, the love for it or the way it actually shoots. Um, I think it's a, probably a combination of them all, but for sure that gun took me to another level that I never thought it could. Yeah. I would, I, you know, it's harder to describe one until you feel one. It's, uh, I don't know that you really can describe, describe how one feels and how, how

[00:41:27] it moves and how it points and how it shoots. And I know that I think they're the best, like in my eyes, they're the best all rounder, but you know, once you pick up a paratsy, I think you'll find they, they point better than any gun out there. You know, their pointability and, and once you get the balance on the perfect sweet spot for you, they move effortlessly. You know, it's not, it's not a fight with one.

[00:41:55] Um, I've never once felt like I'm fighting that gun, even on a bad day when my timing's not great or I'm not feeling a hundred percent. My gun never feels like I'm fighting it ever. Yeah. I mean, they, they really have a, uh, the balance of them, the pointability is just like you said, they, they really, once you have one that fits and you get it done right, uh, they, they

[00:42:23] really, you, they really feel like part of you. And when you're shooting, I, in 2016, I want to talk about this. Cause you just recently did this. I was, uh, in Italy for the world feed task and I went to the factory and had a gun made and I still have it. And, and I shoot it. I grown a little bit, changed a little bit since then, but I, I, and, but I still shoot

[00:42:50] it and, um, it's, it's just, it's, it's right. You know, it's something that I got made there. And as soon as I got it, I had immediate success with it. Uh, one, one a lot, my shooting improved a lot and gave me a lot of confidence. And that whole experience of being over there, walking in the factory and, and seeing the, the, the display room, it's, it's, it's amazing, but it's been such a, you know, that was, that was heck almost 10 years ago is nine years ago.

[00:43:19] And you just got back from there. Uh, I had probably a couple of weeks ago. How was it? Tell me about that. I, uh, whenever you, um, whenever you get to go to the privacy factory, it's, uh, it's an amazing place. Like you say, the display room of all the guns from that to the wood room, to the, the shop for the merchandise, uh, absolutely everything is a, it's a dream of a place to go to.

[00:43:47] Um, yeah, so I had it over two weeks ago. Um, my, my original gun is now four, nearly five years old and I was up for a contract renewal and, um, Maro, uh, kindly agreed to make me a new gun for the new contract. Um, I haven't changed a single thing. I love mine that much.

[00:44:11] Uh, the barrel configuration, weight, light monoblock, rib configuration, chokes, boring. Everything is identical, slightly different on the action. Um, uh, just a nice plain black action with some, my initials on the bottom, which is quite a nice touch of Maradon for me. Um, and then I went over two weeks ago to see it for the first time, pick the woodwork and have the stock made.

[00:44:38] Um, this trip was a lot easier obviously because I had my original stock. So I took that with me and we, um, we just copied that 100%. Um, but we'd be probably be better off talking about the first time I went over there and the experience you get with building a gun. You know, uh, I don't know what it's like in, in the U S but over here, perhaps the, um, with the, it's the only gun manufacturer.

[00:45:06] You know, if you, you buy a high tech and on the shelf, that's a pre-made one would just say it's said amount of money, whatever it be, you can build a custom gun and go and have your custom stock made with certain grade wood for exactly the same cost as buying one off the shelf, which is, uh, which is an amazing thing. And, and you'll know as well as I do, you know, you have a custom gun weighted and balanced exactly how you want it.

[00:45:36] And the stock that fits you 100%, you're always going to shoot better than a gun that you buy off the shelf that you never a hundred percent happy with. So the experience you get with that is incredible. And, and then when you head out there and your metal works done, your barrels and your action and different things, and you go over there and just pick your wood. And then Fabrizio, uh, helps you design your stock and advises you on what you need.

[00:46:04] And he listens to you for what you want as well as anything, which I think is great. You know, you go to a lot of stock makers that tell you what you need instead of listening to what you like and what you think you like, and then trying to give you a little bit of advice to maybe tweak it. Um, I mean, my, my first one come and, uh, when it turned up, you know, I was like a kid at Christmas, couldn't wait to get it turned up at the, the gun club race down there to pick it up.

[00:46:35] And, you know, I'm really told many people this, but I got it out of the box. So excited. I thought, you know, I've got to go shoot it. Didn't have any cartridges with me, brought some cartridges from the, um, the gun club, went down, put the buttons on solo delay. I couldn't hit anything. And I was thinking, have I made a mistake? And, uh, I went home and I, I went home and I was, I was thinking about it and thinking, what have I done different? Why doesn't this gun work?

[00:47:04] And the next day someone invited me to shoot some wood pigeons. And I said, you know what? I'll bring the parazzi and we'll just give it a go. And do you know what? It didn't matter if they were 10 yards or 60, 70, 80 yards. I couldn't miss with it. And I thought, oh, maybe it was just me yesterday. And I went, I went to a competition the next day, shot a 99 and one high gun, you know, first competition out. And I thought, no, no, this gun's fine. And, um, you know, from that moment, absolutely fell in love with it. And I wouldn't change a single thing on my gun.

[00:47:34] Not one thing. Yeah. You just needed to break it in a little. She had to get used to it. You had to, you had to feel the quality. Yeah. I think it was, uh, I think it shot, I don't know if it shot so much different or if, uh, if it's just a fact I rushed down there and I was so excited. I won't really think about what I was doing or looking at the gun too much, but it was, uh, there was a moment there where I thought, geez, have I made a mistake here? But no, it was just me. And I fell in love with it ever since then.

[00:48:02] So much so that I haven't changed, uh, I haven't changed a single thing apart from the color of the bead on the end, uh, just as a little experiment. Uh, I feel like sometimes on certain backgrounds, I lose the end of the gun a little bit. You know, like I said earlier, I'm not really actively looking for the gun, but I want to know exactly where it is in certain backgrounds. I feel like I was losing the white bead or not losing it. I just, it wasn't in my peripheral vision as much as I'd have liked it on certain backgrounds. So I'm just going to try an orange one just to see for an experiment.

[00:48:31] But other than that, the gun is absolutely identical. Um, we'll turn up next month and I'll try it, make sure it's right and put it in the cabinet, shoot this season with the old one and go full steam ahead with the new one. And as from September next year, it just means I'll have to shoot a few plays in the winter just to make sure I get used to it. Yeah. Well, being building it practically identical will make that transition easy, but you shoot,

[00:49:01] uh, you shoot a high tech and I've always shot an MX eight frame. Um, yeah, probably, probably a high tech in the future at some point. Just, uh, I pick them up and I feel them and they, they feel great. And I mean, my gun, I love my gun. There's nothing wrong with it, but that, that little bit of weight in between your hands and I shoot 30, 34 inch barrels and that, that little bit of weight in between your hands and the way it bounces and the way it moves.

[00:49:28] I just, um, you know, I like a thin rib. They, the, I, I don't have a, I have an 11 by seven top rib and I, I really would like a seven by seven. I don't know how yours is set up, but. Yeah. Mine's just an 11, seven standard tapered rib on top. Um, but I know exactly what you mean. You know, when I pick it up, my barrel, my gun isn't that heavy at all.

[00:49:55] My, I think my gun itself only weighs about eight five or eight four. I think even, you know, they're quite light barrels. They're only 1540 grams. Um, but the extra weight between your hands is where I like the weight. I don't really want too much weight out front. You know, I like to be able to get myself out of trouble if I get myself into it. And the weight between your hand feels nice. And, um, they're incredibly soft to shoot. You know, anyone that asked, have a go of my gun.

[00:50:24] The first thing they say is they can't believe how the lack of recoil, um, you know, I'm quite a big guy, but I don't really suffer from recoil, but I don't really want to be whacked at the same time. So the lack of recoil is a brilliant thing for me. Um, the patterning, the way a Pirazzi patterns to me. I don't think any, I don't think any gun in the world patterns like a fixed choke Pirazzi.

[00:50:50] I don't know if yours is fixed or, or multi, but yeah, I, I, I know it's a strong statement to make, but I seriously don't think any gun in the world patterns like a fixed choke Pirazzi. And I'm a big believer. I shoot tight chokes, you know, mine is light full and light full. I love to see big balls of smoke and, you know, the confidence I get from that probably kills me more clays than having opener chokes and chipping a few here and there.

[00:51:18] But then I also, um, my barrels are 18.4 bore. So in my head, whether it's right or wrong, it shoots laser beams. And to me, I prefer that than a, a big widespread. Yeah. Yeah. I shoot fixed chokes as well. And I, uh, I, you know, going back to something you said earlier about being able to pick one

[00:51:46] up off the shelf and, and pay a price and go to the factory and have something built specifically for you and pay a price and pay the same price. That's, that's very impressive. Uh, and I think in this sport, if you're going to do it, there's no aspect of it that is, uh, that's cheap. And, um, I think if you're going to do something, you need to do it right. And I think that that's a, that's a unique service that someone offers, uh, in Pirazzi,

[00:52:15] such a high quality product to go and have something custom made. And if you're going to, if you're going to spend the money and you're going to do the sport, I think there's no reason to not take that path. No, a hundred percent. You know, uh, you, you take the, the, the top 10 or 20 in the world. I should think one or two probably shoot an off the shelf gun.

[00:52:40] You know, like one of my best mates, James Atwood, world compact champion shoots, uh, off the shelf, uh, six, nine, four with a, uh, a standard off the shelf, uh, stock and shoots it as well as anyone in the world. But you probably take 18 or 19 of the top 20 in the world have all got a custom gun with, with custom stocks, you know, um, that says a lot for itself. Yeah. I mean, I think is as good as going back to what we've talked about in the beginning,

[00:53:09] as good as you have to, to be to, to shoot well and compete on any level, uh, you, you, you have to have that level of, uh, of custom gun and, and, uh, you can't, you, you can't leave any room for, uh, margin. And to do that, you have, you have to have a, uh, a gun in your hands and equipment that you, that you feel the most confident in.

[00:53:37] And I don't know how, how you could find a better piece of equipment that is that quality that can be custom, that can be custom made specifically to you, you know, and, and, uh, a hundred percent, you know, a hundred percent, you know, it's no question, you know, the biggest thing in shooting a stock must, a gun must fit you. You know, the stock is the stock is the most important thing. You know, you could, you could shoot a gun that don't fit you and it'd get you so far, but you know, you then shoot a gun that fits you and actually shoots where you're looking.

[00:54:07] It's going to take you to a whole nother level. But, you know, as we were talking about earlier, the mental side of things. And I think when you've got a gun that you trust completely and, uh, and it feels so perfect, it's, it's one less thing on your mind. You know, I think you doubt your equipment once, you know, it's going to cost you more targets than your actual technique because, uh, you'll, you'll end up watching the gun or something you shouldn't do. You know, I pick my gun up and I'm sure you do the same, you know, when I, when that gun

[00:54:37] comes out of the box and I walk onto a sporting course or a fitness course or anything, you know, the question of that gun, not working and that gun, not being in the right place or doing what it's meant to do is never in my mind. And so it only leaves you with one thing to concentrate on and that's the target ahead. Yeah. And that's key. I mean, you know, I've, I've, uh, I've done, I've for, I've had situations where I've gone

[00:55:01] out maybe with a borrowed gun or, uh, another gun and, uh, you go out and you question, you know, is this gun shooting too high? Is this gun, you know, I'm not used to seeing this light picture or I'm not, are these barrels shooting high or, or different things like that. And once you have that first thought, that first doubt, it just eats you alive. If you're a competitor, you want to do well, so bad that you want to be a perfectionist.

[00:55:24] And then we could go off into another, uh, another discussion, uh, if we, like, if we had the rest of the night, but when you have a piece of equipment that you have no doubt, you eliminate all the doubts. Um, you, you're, you're free of all those gremlins. You're free of all those mental battles, all those mental doubts. And it makes, there are days you go out and you shoot and, uh, everything just looks big

[00:55:53] and slow and everything feels good and controlled. And I find I have most of those days with my Parazzi and it's, I started with it. I shot one from the time I was nine years old. And, uh, obviously it was, uh, it was an old Ithaca Parazzi and I've upgraded a couple of times since then, but it, uh, you're definitely right. When you take it out of the box, you don't have any question if you, if you've, uh, if you have the right equipment in your hands. Never once. No.

[00:56:22] No, but, uh, anyways, it's, I could go on all night. I, it's easy to talk about something you believe in and you're passionate about. A hundred percent. You know, I've, I've been in love with it for four years and I don't plan on going anywhere. You know, I'm very lucky that he signed me in for another four years, but I can honestly say, you know, a lot of people say, oh, you know, as you top shots say, you say this because

[00:56:49] you're being paid or you're, you're sponsored, whatever I can hand on heart tell you now, if, if I wasn't fortunate enough to be signed into another four years, I would still be shooting my Parazzi unsponsored. One hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. No, no amount of money would make me change or, or, or anything from what I believe would, would help me win, you know, would, would give me the best chance to win and shoot and compete at the highest level that I think I could. And, and, you know, the, the, it's, it's not about, it's not about money.

[00:57:18] And I think, I think if you look at most people, the most top shots in the sport, uh, whatever brand they're representing, whatever, whatever products they're using, I mean, there's, there's quite a bit of stability in the, in the sport. I think, I think, um, everybody's believes in what they have, but I just, uh, I, the equipment that I use, I'll be with forever.

[00:57:39] I can tell you that, but, um, but anyways, when, uh, kind of wrap this up, when do you think, I don't know that I'll be over there for, for the world right now. I'm planning on it, but, uh, I've got a busy year ahead of me with the wedding and building a house and everything. When, when do you think we'll see you over here this year? Uh, not this year. You know, the shooting season gets busier and busier over here.

[00:58:09] I mean, I was looking at my diary earlier, someone was asking for some dates and I was looking at my diary and I was like, you know, as from probably three weeks time, as from three weeks time, there's shoot after shoot after shoot after shoot. And, you know, we shoot the world and European compact as well. We shoot a lot of compact as well as sporting and fitters and, and five stands. So we have another two big shoots to go to the European and the world compact that you guys don't.

[00:58:38] So what you could do, but for some reason, you guys don't fancy coming over and shooting compact, but, um, I don't think I'll be over this year. Yeah. I booked into the Jack links in, uh, in February. Uh, I did plan on coming this year, but when I looked at it and thought I haven't really shot since September and then going to do six weeks work in UAE, I was thinking probably a trip to America to try and compete. Wasn't my best idea.

[00:59:03] So now I'll come over to the Jack links next year, see if I can, uh, improve on last year. Uh, see if I can learn how to shoot American targets and, uh, see how it goes, but you should, uh, definitely try and go for the world English. Yeah, I'll definitely, I'll definitely try. There's a lot of, a lot of traveling, you know, honeymoon, we're going, going, uh, to Europe for the honeymoon and that'll just, just a lot of time traveling, but, uh, I'm definitely going to try to make it over.

[00:59:33] It's been a couple of years since I've been over and, uh, I miss it. I love going over there and there's a big difference between there and here and you know what I'm talking about. It's a massive difference. You know, we was talking about this the other day and, and last year I felt like my shooting was as good as it's been. I think my last year was, my shooting was as good as it's ever been. And I come over to Eminem to shoot the world sporting and, you know, Anthony pretty

[01:00:02] much beat me up for three days on a main event. You know, shooting in, shooting in borderline woods that could be forests and, and stuff that, you know, it's, we don't get to shoot that. And unless you've done it a few times over there, you know, I was missing things over there that, you know, it was baffling my brain why they wasn't breaking. And then other things, just some stuff felt so right. And then other stuff, you know, it's like, why isn't this breaking? So, um, yeah, there's a massive difference.

[01:00:30] Um, but I think that's good. I think we should, um, I think we should come and learn to shoot your targets more and you should come and learn to shoot our targets more. Um, but I quite like the fact that there's a home and away advantage for the world English each year because we have to, we have to come and shoot your targets and try and, uh, live with you guys. And then you have to come and try and live with us guys. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's, it's different in a lot of ways. Just, you know, the, the atmosphere is different.

[01:01:00] The style of target setting is different. You don't need to feel bad. Anthony's beat me up a lot of times up there and I shoot them all the time. I shoot those targets all the time. Do you know what? Well, we started on, we started on the, one of the prelims and, you know, I think I shot a 93 and I thought, yeah, not bad. But I went to the other 12 gauge event and I shot a 98 and missed a whole pair on one stand. And I thought, you know what? I'm shooting well.

[01:01:28] And, uh, and then we shot the five stand, uh, apart from one bad layout that I just misread a couple of targets. So we're shooting well and we get into the first, the first layout of the main event. I think it was, uh, I think it was six, nine, two, the one in the, no, no, six, nine, two was out. Was it DT 11 or SL two? One of the ones. Yeah. Right in the woods. So we started on that and, you know, from three stands in, I was like, well, that's my world championship over.

[01:01:58] And, uh, from that, it kind of, uh, set the scene for the rest of the three days. But look, I, um, I absolutely loved the world English last year at M&M. You know, Anthony done an amazing job. Uh, the atmosphere, the targets, even though I didn't tune very well, uh, were amazing. Uh, I think you, you guys do an incredible job of making the sport feel exceptionally professional and there's an amazing atmosphere.

[01:02:27] You know, the make a break final, uh, which was on the Saturday night, I believe. And you've got, there must've been four, 500 people there watching that. But it's like, uh, an event and, uh, we look forward to coming over. So, um, I'm looking forward to the Jack links and I'm looking forward to the world English in 26 as well. Yeah. Yeah. There's always improvements.

[01:02:52] It's definitely with the number of competitors that are going and, uh, just the interest level, the interest level is crazy. You look at tournaments are filling up within a couple of days and, um, you know, everybody seems to, seems to do a really good job. The bar is set pretty high and it just, there's always improvements to be, to be made. I think if you're not trying to get better at the, at the next one, then, then you're not, you're not in it for the right reasons.

[01:03:22] But, uh, but yeah, we'll see. We'll come over in February and we'll shoot a few. And I think the plan will be to come over a week before the world English in 26 and actually shoot some targets over there and have a little play fest. Yeah. That might work out. That might work out better. But, you know, like I said, it, it just, uh, I don't know. There's Anthony's and Anthony's caught a lot of people out that shoot his targets every day. So he's, he's, uh, it ain't his first time.

[01:03:49] He was, uh, you know, you look at them targets he set and it was, it was extremely clever. You know, he was, he was beating you up on targets that looked nothing, you know, targets 20, 25 yards away. And he's, and he was beating up, he was beating up the best in the world at short ranges. And he, he done an exceptional job of making a shoot, shoot a lot harder than it looks, which I think is the ultimate shoot.

[01:04:19] You know, a shoot that looks fairly, relatively steady. And, you know, you go in there expecting to kill them. And when they don't break, I think that's a, that's hats off to the target setter. And, and Anthony done that the whole way around. So it was an amazing event. And to be honest with you, I'd, I'd love to come back and I can't wait to shoot Eminem again, to be fair. Yeah. It's, um, Anthony, he, he's very passionate about what he does.

[01:04:46] You can tell he, he, he has a mind that doesn't stop and he, he definitely catches people out and he does it in the, in the, in the cleverest of ways. You're exactly right there. I have a lot of respect for Anthony. Um, you know, you can think everybody does. You can beat someone at range and, you know, you put targets on the, on the edge of the limit or whatever. And it's very easy to beat someone. But when you're beating someone like he done at ranges, he done that was, uh, that was a course setting masterclass really.

[01:05:17] Yes, it was. And he does that actually. He has, he has course setting. I think it's very popular and I can see why I can definitely see why. But yeah, we'll see. We'll, uh, we'll see how you look. Okay. On in, uh, churchills this year. Hopefully, uh, hopefully we can do as amazing a job as, um, you guys done last year. And, um, we hope that you all enjoy it and, and we look forward to seeing you all.

[01:05:44] It's great when you come over and we get to have some fun together and shoot some plays together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know EJ, they've always, they've always, uh, done an exceptional job when I've been over. It's, uh, they definitely know, they definitely know how to do it, but, uh, I'm looking forward to it. I hope I get to make it. I'm going to definitely try, but, uh. Yeah. Just have to make sure your honeymoon in Europe is about the same sort of time and, you know. Yeah.

[01:06:13] I've, I, yeah, I've tried to, uh, we, we, we ran several ideas by and I've, I just haven't seemed to win. And, you know, I haven't, I haven't seemed to get, get my way, which it's all right. That's how it's supposed to be, I guess. Yeah. That's why I never, I don't think you're there. You're not the only man like that. Well, it makes me feel better, but, but now we're looking forward to it. It'll be a good time.

[01:06:38] And, and, uh, I hope I can, I can, I can spare the extra week and come over and shoot that. But, uh, but anyways, we'll see how the year goes. Yeah. Good. Well, man, I appreciate you. Appreciate you coming on. Um, I could keep talking the rest of the night, but, uh, every, all good things have to end eventually. And it's 1am here now.

[01:07:05] So, uh, you know, busy day tomorrow, so we better, uh, get a bed, but it's been amazing. Um, thank you so much for having me. It's been great talking to you all night about shooting. You know, when you get two people that are passionate about a sport, it's great to just sit down and just chat about it. So, no, it's been brilliant. I really appreciate it. And I look forward to seeing you soon. Hopefully you get over. And, uh, if not, I will, um, I'll see you next February at the Jack links. Sounds good, man. I really appreciate you coming on.

[01:07:35] Yeah. Thanks a lot. We'll catch you soon. Bye. Bye.